LastApeMan


quality posts: 18 Private Messages LastApeMan

I have been thinking of getting away from that PFTE - Polytetrafluoroethylene completely.

I have a strong suspicion that may be a key factor in health issues I have been witnessing in my family and through other sources. I would like to get away from it to see for myself.
This set really looks wonderful though. :O( I mean, i cook every single day in my home for a large family and have cooked nearly everyday of my life since I was 14 and have never ever owned a set of of cookware I truly adore.

No Matter how careful I have been no non stick surface I have ever used really lasted and this companies "1 year warranty" claim is not helping my decision. in the woot description I see it says "FORDGED" and in other descriptions elsewhere on the net i see it says anodized aluminum. I have heavy anodized now and it seemed like the best ever wen I first got it, It was guaranteed from cost co, I took my first set back in less than one year for a replacement but now the set has been discontinued for a smaller build set of the same materials, ( made in Italy ) the set seems awesome, but peels ( Into the food) slowly as time goes by. even when strictly using all plastic and wood spatulas and spoons and utensils there is no way to protect this coating enough to make it last.

I am suspecting connections with health problems but It has been such a long time it is difficult to tell. I was thinking getting away from it completely after using it for so long may be the only way to see if any changes occur.

Wikipedia on PTFE -
The pyrolysis of PTFE is detectable at 200 °C (392 °F), and it evolves several fluorocarbon gases[18] and a sublimate. Animal studies indicate that it is unlikely that these products would be generated in amounts significant to health at temperatures below 250 °C (482 °F),[19] although birds are proven to be much more sensitive to these decomposition products.[18][20]

While PTFE is stable and nontoxic, it begins to deteriorate after the temperature of cookware reaches about 260 °C (500 °F), and decomposes above 350 °C (662 °F).[21] These degradation by-products can be lethal to birds, and can cause flu-like symptoms in humans.[21]

Meat is usually fried between 200 and 230 °C (392 and 446 °F), and most oils will start to smoke before a temperature of 260 °C is reached, but there are at least two cooking oils (refined safflower oil and avocado oil) that have a higher smoke point than 260 °C. Empty cookware can also exceed this temperature upon heating.

I think I just talked myself out of these. also that 1 MFG of these products in China just helped as well. I am sick of thinking about ingesting poison put in things that I have purchased in good faith and then finding out that I am probably poisoning my family.

maybe I will just switch back to the old cast iron pots and pans. I only cook with open flame anyway, seems before anyone ever heard of teflon, cast iron well taken care of was always the bomb. not as pretty though is it.

What Lies Behind Us and Lies Before Us are Small Matters Compared to What Lies Right to Our Faces.

jackielu


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jackielu

Would really like a set of these but won't buy if they're made in China...can anyone confirm that they are made in Spain?

LastApeMan


quality posts: 18 Private Messages LastApeMan

I'm thinking the way my luck goes.

If only 1% were from China, I'd be a shoe in for one of those sets.

Also, the way my thinking is, If it were made in China that fact would not be a selling point. So why not leave it out? and they did leave it out.

being made almost anywhere else in the entire world is a selling point and they did not include that.

see what I mean? I was just looking up all the alternatives to the non stick surfaced pots and pans that contain PFTE and ceramic ( like the brand xreama) seems really attractive, except for the fact that they can be broken and impact breaks are not covered by warranty. Having kids and the cost of this cookware would make me insane at 400.00 a set. plus the sets not really even big enough for me.

It's hard to conceive that cast iron cookware may be the way for me to go. but it's looking more and more that way. seems a pain to keep up and I got away from it long ago but i am starting to miss the simpleness of using it. really the weight and o9ld school look is the only real drawbacks, it doesn't appear clean and nice in the kitchen but the peace of mind I had when I only had cast iron was a real clincher.

My brains hurting from all this early morning thinking. or maybe it's the teflon. Grrr.

What Lies Behind Us and Lies Before Us are Small Matters Compared to What Lies Right to Our Faces.

rilrea


quality posts: 0 Private Messages rilrea

Yep, def just got a set. I needed a new set as it is. And these look fantastic!

bnbsouthworth


quality posts: 55 Private Messages bnbsouthworth

Am I the only one who has never heard of a sheep's foot knife?

Never heard of the bird beak either, but at least I can see where that comes from.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
essay2u wrote:Oven safe?



Yes, according to the description on Fagor's webpage:
"Magnificently designed to go from the stovetop or oven to an elegant table presentation."

VenusAD


quality posts: 8 Private Messages VenusAD

A shame that they're pretty and all and seem good quality, but I cannot have anything with PTFEs, unless it is something simple like a frying pan that I will be constantly monitoring on a relatively low heat setting.

Thank you to those mentioning the ptfe's. I have two parrots--one a macaw, which tend to have extra-sensitive respiratory systems--and do not like to take chances.

While it is rare to heat the pan enough to release the toxins (though experts debate the exact temperature it seems) the pots are especially easy to do this with, particularly when boiling creams or milk on high settings.


Would love if Woot would offer stainless steel or iron options--no PTFEs or teflon (which uses PTFEs)



Please note: Birds are only more sensitive to these gasses because when they breathe the oxygen cycles through their lungs and throw the air sacs in their major bones before entering the lungs again. They basically process the oxygen twice, which means they do not breathe it out as fast as we do (it is not due to their smaller size, though that may contribute). Essentially, PTFEs are just as harmful to humans...we just have a better chance at surviving consumption of them. That's just something to think about when it comes to owning such materials..particularly if you have a bad habit of burning your pans.

chrisegan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages chrisegan

I would suggest not getting aluminum cooking products, the coatings break down over time and aluminum leaches into your food. It has shown to collect in the brain and other organs and is believed to contribute to things like Alzhiemer's. Just an opinion.

snixon


quality posts: 0 Private Messages snixon

My wife says the green looks like the color of a sinus infection. I told her it didn't matter what color they are, she'll use them and like it.

After I woke up, I agreed that it was an ugly color.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100

No one is talking about the knives so...

From the Fagor's webpage:

Resin Coated Blades
All blades are made with resin coated high carbon stainless steel; the resin coating provides added strength and durability while ensuring a non-stick surface that resists stains and corrosion, keeping your blades clean and free from decay.



I'm not sure if it's a problem with translation (from Spanish), but metal blades don't decay -- especially in a home environment. Perhaps they meant decaying food that got stuck on the blades?

These knives sound great. My only concern is that the resin coating may keep them from being sharpened. A recent Woot for coated Kuhn Rikon knives claims that they can be sharpened so maybe it's a non-issue, but Fagor says no such thing.

mommyleah


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mommyleah

With a set this large and cute, how could you go wrong for $99?! To bad today isn't pay day!

brenjacob


quality posts: 1 Private Messages brenjacob

Alright, QuanTanium is a new non-stick coating out there, and there have been a lot of questions about it. After several emails and such I have finally got the definitive answer on the safety of Quantanium. Keep in mind that there has been a lot of mis-information out there. There was a much older thread where someone had email Cuisinart and they had said that QuanTanium is safe, but it is not.

Here is the answer straight from the horse's mouth, Whitford Corporation, the company that designed QuanTanium:

I'm not quite sure why we didn't respond to you in the past, but I will this time.

As a supplier of nonstick coatings, we are very well aware of the problem of pet birds and overheated nonstick coatings.

While it is true that the fumes from decomposing PTFE (e.g. "Teflon") can be fatal to birds, the fumes from overheated foods can have the same effect. In fact, the toxic fumes from over heated foods are emitted far below the temperatures required to decompose PTFE. In many cases, PTFE takes the blame when it was actually the food being burned which was the culprit.

To answer your specific question, yes, QuanTanium does contain PTFE. Virtually every quality nonstick on the market contains PTFE as the nonstick component. If you are looking for good cookware which has a nonstick coating, you will not find any that do not contain PTFE.

Your choices will be to use uncoated cookware or to use coated cookware carefully. As you point out in your email, "PTFE is potentially lethal to" pet birds. Properly used, nonstick coatings provide a safe, healthful way of cooking.

I hope this answers you questions and possibly allays some concerns. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have further questions.

Best regards,

John


John Badner
Business Mgr/Consumer Products
Whitford Corporation
Tel: (610) 296-3200 Ext: 261
Fax: (610) 647-4849
jbadner@whitfordww.com

Cargo


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Cargo

"I'm not sure if it's a problem with translation (from Spanish), but metal blades don't decay -- "

Rust is a form of Decay. High Carbon steel makes a great knife but is normally prone to rust.

We have a set of similar knives and like them a lot.

brenjacob


quality posts: 1 Private Messages brenjacob
LastApeMan wrote:I'm thinking the way my luck goes.

If only 1% were from China, I'd be a shoe in for one of those sets.

Also, the way my thinking is, If it were made in China that fact would not be a selling point. So why not leave it out? and they did leave it out.

being made almost anywhere else in the entire world is a selling point and they did not include that.

see what I mean? I was just looking up all the alternatives to the non stick surfaced pots and pans that contain PFTE and ceramic ( like the brand xreama) seems really attractive, except for the fact that they can be broken and impact breaks are not covered by warranty. Having kids and the cost of this cookware would make me insane at 400.00 a set. plus the sets not really even big enough for me.

It's hard to conceive that cast iron cookware may be the way for me to go. but it's looking more and more that way. seems a pain to keep up and I got away from it long ago but i am starting to miss the simpleness of using it. really the weight and o9ld school look is the only real drawbacks, it doesn't appear clean and nice in the kitchen but the peace of mind I had when I only had cast iron was a real clincher.

My brains hurting from all this early morning thinking. or maybe it's the teflon. Grrr.



my cast iron never sticks all you have to do is seal it properly. i never wash fry pans with soap or put them in dishwasher. never get sick or have anything stick. like the look. i have very expensive la creuset pretty white pots that were over heated in oven and now look like crap. totally stained and impossible to clean.

pjfavia


quality posts: 4 Private Messages pjfavia

I use Circulon non-stick and never get sick or have anything stick too. I also pay attention when I cook so I don't boil off or burn foods into the pan.

If you're concerned about it, then don't buy this and go out and buy cast iron or regular aluminum, and some steel wool for scrubbing.

laneysweet


quality posts: 0 Private Messages laneysweet

Would have loved to have bought these pans but I am not gentle enough; since it will scratch wear out with time like this site http://www.ehow.com/about_5884131_anodized-aluminum-dangers.html says....will keep waiting for the more expensive hard anodized to come down in price.

laneysweet


quality posts: 0 Private Messages laneysweet
pjfavia wrote:I use Circulon non-stick and never get sick or have anything stick too. I also pay attention when I cook so I don't boil off or burn foods into the pan.

If you're concerned about it, then don't buy this and go out and buy cast iron or non-stick aluminum, and some steel wool for scrubbing.



So you think this set would be as safe as the Circulon?

ambergurrl


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ambergurrl

I love my Le Creuset enameled cast iron Dutch oven. I cannot say enough about how awesome it is. I love the natural non-sticky-ness of the ceramic/enamel coating. It's heavy as hell and was super expensive (I was lucky enough to get it as a housewarming gift), but it cooks everything so nicely and looks great. I am always on the search for additional pieces on sale since I really can't afford a whole kitchen full of the stuff at full price.

In the meantime I'll continue poisoning myself slowly with 15 year old non-stick Te-Fal frying pans that my grandma got me when I got my first college apartment.

pjfavia


quality posts: 4 Private Messages pjfavia
laneysweet wrote:So you think this set would be as safe as the Circulon?



I would assume so. Though I would be careful using it on induction or glass electric cooktops, since mine came with a warning about ceramic coated cookware that it could fuse to the surface if you let the pan get too hot or boil dry.

amyrchicago


quality posts: 0 Private Messages amyrchicago
enriquei wrote:For the same thing Teflon is a "bad thing." There's evidence that Teflon (and other PTFE based substances) releases volatile compounds above 550* (F). These compounds cause death in birds, and flu-like symptoms in humans. There's debate if they also have long-term effects in humans too.



So if you don't heat these things up past 550 the chemical stays intact and doesn't get into the food or released into the air?

tomh922


quality posts: 2 Private Messages tomh922

If you're really concerned about non-stick coatings your choices are cast iron, aluminum, or stainless. After years of scratched up non-sticks we went to stainless and haven't looked back. Yes you have to pay more attention to the heat meaning lowering your flame, electricity, induction what ever, but having done that sticking is not a problem. We have still have some cast iron which gets occasional use. The biggest problem with cast iron is doing the seasoning right. I've seen folks using cast iron with what looks like a 1/4" layer of cooked on cruft on the sides. No thanks, I'll stay with the stainless.

hawkgirl


quality posts: 2 Private Messages hawkgirl

BergHOFF Earthchef Acadian 10-Piece Cookware SetNon-toxic, PTFE-free, and PFOA-free nonstick cookware and bakeware, that's EarthChef by BergHOFF. EarthChef also has a selection of bamboo kitchen utensils, knives, and energy-saving induction cooktops.
I got this set on Amazon gold box for $165 a few weeks ago. It is PTFE and PFOA free and works with induction cook tops. Right now it's $284, so wait until a sale. I really like the set, and I haven't had it long, ao I can't attest to durability and scratch proofness, but so far so good. I would stay away from PTFE.

hizzeraud


quality posts: 6 Private Messages hizzeraud

I grew up with a cockatiel that lived to the ripe age of 22 before she kicked it, and my husband and I have a 6 year old african grey parrot. The cockatiel lived in my parent's kitchen, and our parrot has a stand that is right next to our kitchen. I used nonstick cookware at my parent's house while in my teens, probably inappropriately and overheated the skillets several times, and we use nonstick cookware now as adults. Our birds have never shown PTFE toxicity. I appreciate the science behind it, but I think that the PTFE issue is one of the many trendy scare tactics circulating now regarding food and health.

Is that latte dairy free, gluten free, and loaded with coconut water flavored with acai berries?

steverblum


quality posts: 0 Private Messages steverblum

That reviewer, Clippingmoney...., seemed too enthusiastic, like, over the top. I noticed at the bottom of the blog it says she received the product to review. Makes me think she got to keep it with a positive review.

MarthaJ


quality posts: 1 Private Messages MarthaJ

Glad I ordered my set last night right after it was offered - I suspected the red would sell out and it has. Blue only left for you late deciders!

freetek


quality posts: 1 Private Messages freetek

After (literally) nearly dying from exposure to gassed-off PTFE in the early 70s, all forms are banned from our household.
The inhalation of the stuff exposed to heat higher than 450 degrees F, BP went into oscillation between two deadly limits for weeks and the arrhythmia it caused lasted 3 decades before finally stabilizing from medication. During those years, only an occasional (inadvertent) bite of black widows brought it under control for a couple of years at a time.

A young MD researched the stuff among industrial poisons and said the gasses from PTFE had an effect that paralleled that of 'nerve gas' used in warfare.

BTW, 450 F is easily reached by a forgotten container on any gas or electric stove.

Freedom is inversely proportional to the size of government.

Geethatsgr8


quality posts: 29 Private Messages Geethatsgr8

UGGHHHH!!! I wanted a RED set! Booo! Oh well, blue is better than that hideous lemon-lime green. If I thought they'd have these in the next Woot-off, I would have waited...but life has taught me to never put off buying today, what might not be in a Woot-off tomorrow.

But Woot...if you happen to have someone cancel their order of red cookware, I would be thrilled if you'd switch my blue set out. :-)

underconstr


quality posts: 0 Private Messages underconstr

I went cast iron/stainless steel about 4 years ago, and have never been happier...
food tastes better too!

bluebirdie


quality posts: 0 Private Messages bluebirdie
woncoolone wrote:Anyone have any experience with this brand?


I own a set of fagor stainless pressure cookers from Macy's for around a decade. Had to purchase the rubber ring every few years which is norm. The plastic handle was not made for high power gas range which was a surprise for made in spain. But the pots themselves are still like new, after weekly use for a decade. Can't say the same about my circulon.

A point of comparison: my old pressure cookers before fagor usually had a life span of 2-5 years.

I am not a paid reviewer ;-)

inkycatz


quality posts: 105 Private Messages inkycatz
Geethatsgr8 wrote:UGGHHHH!!! I wanted a RED set! Booo! Oh well, blue is better than that hideous lemon-lime green. If I thought they'd have these in the next Woot-off, I would have waited...but life has taught me to never put off buying today, what might not be in a Woot-off tomorrow.

But Woot...if you happen to have someone cancel their order of red cookware, I would be thrilled if you'd switch my blue set out. :-)



Well, that'd be something you'd have to ask service@woot.com about.

I'm just hanging out, really.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
chrisegan wrote:I would suggest not getting aluminum cooking products, the coatings break down over time and aluminum leaches into your food. It has shown to collect in the brain and other organs and is believed to contribute to things like Alzhiemer's. Just an opinion.



NO NO NO NO ... this is a myth that should have been buried long ago. Meta-analyses of existing studies show that the link is so weak that it's not taken seriously by Alzheimer researchers or advocates. Most telling, people who are exposed to other sources of aluminum do NOT showing a higher rate of Alzheimer's. Epidemiological studies like these carry more weight than in vitro and in sera studies because they look at the actual rates of morbidity and mortality.

For example, patients with kidney failure cannot excrete aluminum efficiently. Yet Netter et al found that Alzheimer's is no higher in these patients than that in healthy people -- despite years of exposure. Furthermore, studies of other sources of aluminum, i.e. tea, antiperspirants and antacids, show no correlation with Alzheimer's.

According to the British Alzhemier's Society, "The overwhelming medical and scientific opinion is that the findings outlined above do not convincingly demonstrate a causal relationship between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease."

One of the best discussion is here:
http://alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=99

As for leeching, Keep in mind that cooking is not the same as long term storage so exposure to the aluminum is minimal, even if the non-stick coating has worn off. And that won't happen to any great degree since it uses a high quality coating and bonding. I have a Circulon pan that is over 10 yrs old and the coating still hasn't flaked.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
enriquei wrote:For the same thing Teflon is a "bad thing." There's evidence that Teflon (and other PTFE based substances) releases volatile compounds above 550* (F). These compounds cause death in birds, and flu-like symptoms in humans. There's debate if they also have long-term effects in humans too.



Teflon is a non-issue unless vaporized, whereby it can be deposited into the lungs. Otherwise, it's inert because the molecules are too large to be absorbed, and it doesn't react with other chemicals. That's why many implants and medical instruments are coated with Teflon. Vaporization only occurs in high heat, which you should not allow in cooking for many reasons, i.e. the creation of carcinogenic heterocyclic amines. Foods with a lot of water would never get above 212F. And even if you reach vaporization temperatures during frying, the exposure is short. At worst, it can be a respiratory irritant for those who are sensitive.

This Teflon hysteria is not based on facts or reputable peer-reviewed studies. One study even showed that the vapors from certain cooking oils are more toxic than that from Teflon.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
freetek wrote:After (literally) nearly dying from exposure to gassed-off PTFE in the early 70s, all forms are banned from our household.
The inhalation of the stuff exposed to heat higher than 450 degrees F, BP went into oscillation between two deadly limits for weeks and the arrhythmia it caused lasted 3 decades before finally stabilizing from medication. During those years, only an occasional (inadvertent) bite of black widows brought it under control for a couple of years at a time.

A young MD researched the stuff among industrial poisons and said the gasses from PTFE had an effect that paralleled that of 'nerve gas' used in warfare.

BTW, 450 F is easily reached by a forgotten container on any gas or electric stove.



How was the causal relationship established between PTFE and your arrhythmia?

And please provide a citation for "A young MD researched the stuff among industrial poisons and said the gasses from PTFE had an effect that paralleled that of 'nerve gas' used in warfare." I work in Neurological research and have not heard that. Thanks.

Years of epidemiological research have not shown any widespread ill effects in consumers. If Telfon was so harmful, surely those who use it would have a higher rate of morbidity than than those who don't. And as far as I can see, no disease occurs at a higher rate in Teflon users than non-users. As with anything else, those with hyper sensitivity need to take special caution. But that's true with dust, detergents, plants, peanuts, salt, etc.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
underconstr wrote:I went cast iron/stainless steel about 4 years ago, and have never been happier...
food tastes better too!



That's doubtful unless you like the taste of iron, which does leech onto foods (because it reacts with water, i.e. rust). I personally can't stand the metallic taste so I avoid cast iron, although stainless steel is fine. Teflon is absolutely inert so it imparts no flavors to your food. Nor will it react with acids, etc.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
brenjacob wrote:
Here is the answer straight from the horse's mouth, Whitford Corporation, the company that designed QuanTanium:

I'm not quite sure why we didn't respond to you in the past, but I will this time.

As a supplier of nonstick coatings, we are very well aware of the problem of pet birds and overheated nonstick coatings.

While it is true that the fumes from decomposing PTFE (e.g. "Teflon") can be fatal to birds, the fumes from overheated foods can have the same effect. In fact, the toxic fumes from over heated foods are emitted far below the temperatures required to decompose PTFE. In many cases, PTFE takes the blame when it was actually the food being burned which was the culprit.

To answer your specific question, yes, QuanTanium does contain PTFE. Virtually every quality nonstick on the market contains PTFE as the nonstick component. If you are looking for good cookware which has a nonstick coating, you will not find any that do not contain PTFE.

Your choices will be to use uncoated cookware or to use coated cookware carefully. As you point out in your email, "PTFE is potentially lethal to" pet birds. Properly used, nonstick coatings provide a safe, healthful way of cooking.



I agree with him. Virtually all non-ceramic non-stick coatings are just a variant of the original Teflon, and that includes SilverStone and the QuanTanium used in this set. What differs are additives that toughen the coating, the way it's bonded to the metal, and the way the coating is shaped. For example, QuanTanium claims to add titanium, an inert and durable metal. And Circulon applies the coating on a raised patterned surface, minimizing wear and contact with food (thus decreasing stickiness).

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
laneysweet wrote:Would have loved to have bought these pans but I am not gentle enough; since it will scratch wear out with time like this site http://www.ehow.com/about_5884131_anodized-aluminum-dangers.html says....will keep waiting for the more expensive hard anodized to come down in price.



That's a horrible irresponsible article written by All-Clad to sell their product. There is no author attribution and no indication that it was reviewed by a medical professional (as is the case on WebMD) Nor are there any references, including peer-reviewed studies. Indeed, the alarmist conclusions reached in that piece in contradicted by major health advocates, including Alzheimer groups. See my other post.

freetek


quality posts: 1 Private Messages freetek
sdc100 wrote:How was the causal relationship established between PTFE and your arrhythmia?

And please provide a citation for "A young MD researched the stuff among industrial poisons and said the gasses from PTFE had an effect that paralleled that of 'nerve gas' used in warfare." I work in Neurological research and have not heard that. Thanks.



Please email me for details not pertinent to Woot's forum: [Mod: email removed, please use PM]

Steve Allison

Freedom is inversely proportional to the size of government.

whatsamattaU


quality posts: 1068 Private Messages whatsamattaU
sdc100 wrote:That's a horrible irresponsible article written by All-Clad to sell their product. There is no author attribution and no indication that it was reviewed by a medical professional (as is the case on WebMD) Nor are there any references, including peer-reviewed studies. Indeed, the alarmist conclusions reached in that piece in contradicted by major health advocates, including Alzheimer groups. See my other post.



You come in handy for subjects like this, no?

DaZoneRanger


quality posts: 44 Private Messages DaZoneRanger
bnbsouthworth wrote:Am I the only one who has never heard of a sheep's foot knife?

Never heard of the bird beak either, but at least I can see where that comes from.



Yeah, you're probably the only one. I got a sheep's foot Shun paring knife from Woot a long time ago. Not my favorite and if it wouldn't have somehow sustained a tiny nick on the tip of the blade (*blames wife), I'd have sold it.

DaZoneRanger


quality posts: 44 Private Messages DaZoneRanger

I totally wish I'd had money to get a set of these. I love Fagor - good stuff - and these are really attractive. Oh well, such is life, when your poor.